Are you flood ready? How do you find out if your home is at risk of flooding? What can you do to protect your home and if water does suddenly come through your door, what should you do next? With much of England and Scotland experiencing rainfall 70% above average for December, flooding has impacted thousands of homes and businesses. Join Niki and her co-host and Environment Agency Environment Manager, Ian Withers as they explore the role of the EA in flood forecasting, warning and operational response. And we hear the first hand impact of flooding from Mary Long-Donaugh OBE, who after experiencing significant flooding in 2007 is now a property flood resilience advocate. And as ever, find out what our guests decided to make possible with the Planet Possible Magic Wand…
Are you flood ready? How do you find out if your home is at risk of flooding? What can you do to protect your home and if water does suddenly come through your door, what should you do next?
With much of England and Scotland experiencing rainfall 70% above average for December, flooding has impacted thousands of homes and businesses. Join Niki and her co-host and Environment Agency Environment Manager, Ian Withers as they explore the role of the EA in flood forecasting, warning and operational response.
We hear the first hand impact of flooding from Mary Long-Donaugh OBE, who after experiencing significant flooding in 2007 is now a property flood resilience advocate.
And as ever, find out what our guests decided to make possible with the Planet Possible Magic Wand…
We mentioned these in the pod…
If you’re in the UK you can check your risk of flooding here: https://www.gov.uk/check-flooding
Check out Mary’s free flood guides here: https://floodmary.com
Warch the sandbag test here: https://floodmary.com/2022/02/23/when-a-flood-occurs-everyone-shouts-for-sandbags/
S5 Ep5 Flood Ready
Niki Roach: [00:00:00] Well, welcome to our first Planet Possible episode of 2024! We're delighted you're joining us to hear evidence led discussion about topics that are critical to the way we manage our water and environment. A huge thanks to our season sponsor, Accordion, and you'll hear a little bit more about Accordion later.
We're really grateful for their support in bringing the pod to you. If you're new to Planet Possible, I'm Niki Roach. I'm a passionate advocate for all things water and environment and a fellow of CIWEM, the Chartered Institution of Water and Environmental Management. And our members in over 90 countries are professionals with a breadth and critically depth of expertise in the topics that are shaping the future of our planet.
And we're joined by many of them across this season. So let's get today's episode started and we're going to dig into the topic of flooding with a real focus on what flood resilience means for our [00:01:00] homes. Here in the UK since the autumn we've had unsettled weather patterns and during December 2023 some areas across eastern Scotland and in central and northern England recorded rainfall more than 70 percent above average for the time of year.
And in January, we've experienced our eighth named storm of the season, Storm Henk. That's brought widespread flooding of around 2, 000 homes alongside infrastructure, causing millions of pounds of damage and disruption. And as we record today, there are still 108 flood alerts, which is where flooding is possible, and 28 flood warnings, where flooding is expected.
So today, we're going to get behind those statistics and find out what it's like to experience flooding in your home, what you can do to prevent and prepare for it, and how the Environment Agency, the environmental regulator here in England, predicts and responds to events like these. So to help me navigate this very complicated topic, I'm joined by a fantastic co host, Ian Withers, Wessex area of the Environment Agency, with over 30 years operational experience working across England on a wide range of [00:02:00] topics.
I'm delighted you're here. Welcome to Planet Possible, Ian. Thank you, Niki. It's great to be with you. Now, I'm glad you're here. Let's get started by understanding just how significant the flooding that we're currently experiencing here in England is.
Ian Withers: Well, it just seems to have gone on forever, doesn't it?
I think people feel that they've been talking about flooding or preparing for flooding or probably clearing up from it for over a month. It's just felt a really long wet winter. And of course, it depends on your point of reference, I'm sure, because flooding has been widespread across England and further than England on this occasion.
It's felt unusual in that much of the rain we've had, certainly in my area of expertise in the West country, it's been falling on our catchments high up in, in where the headwaters start. So actually the intense rain we've had has taken a long, long time to work down off the fields and woodland and so on into rivers and down to the sea.
And all the while that's been happening, communities have been at risk. And so it's just felt like a real long haul and compared to, so 10 [00:03:00] years ago, much of. England and certainly West Country, Somerset particularly, was really badly affected. And we've seen flows and levels in some cases in parts of the West Country certainly that are comparable to what we saw 10 years ago.
So in terms of significant, absolutely significant and one that we've taken.
Niki Roach: I am really keen to explore what all of that water means in practice for homes that have been flooded and householders that live at risk of flooding. And so I'm really delighted that for our main interview we're joined by Mary Long-Donaugh OBE.
Mary is a property flood resilience champion known colloquially as Flood Mary. And she supports and advocates for homeowners who've experienced flooding. And Mary encountered life changing flooding in 2007. And she offers us a really unique viewpoint on her experiences and the extraordinary work she's done since then.
So let's listen to the interview with Mary. Mary, let's start off. You've got a really interesting relationship with floodings. Let's start off by just explaining to listeners a little bit about why you're so [00:04:00] passionate about flooding and public awareness of flooding.
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: Well, first of all, when I was flooded, I lived in Worcester, which is absolutely infamous for flooding.
We often see photos of Worcester don't we with swans swimming in the street. But I, when I was flooded, lived nowhere near a river, so I hadn't got the river, the sea, a stream or anything to make me think that I was at risk of flooding. I was just in a low spot. Now I was the mother of five children and I was also a jobbing soprano and I was making a living at the weekend.
So I, that's what I was doing at the same time as in tandem bringing up my children. My youngest child had just been diagnosed with severe autism and learning difficulties. And just to give you an idea of what, how bad it is, he's 26. And he's got the mental capacity of a 15 month old toddler. And we were also sort of doing up an old [00:05:00] Victorian house to the extent we were pulling ceilings down and walls off, etc.
And my eldest son had got a long term temporary downstairs bedroom. And one night, it had been raining hard, and he just called upstairs that his bedroom was full of flood water. And it absolutely stank. And that's the first thing that we knew, that we were at flood risk. Apparently, the house had flooded before, but we hadn't been told by the previous owner.
Had we known, we might have thought twice about buying it. But we also lost lots of things that were kept in a filing cabinet. downstairs. I was saving little handprints from all my babies, all their playgroup and nursery and school pictures. Just one from a term in a box for each of them that I planned on giving them on their 18th birthday, wrapped up in a ribbon.
This is your life. And we lost the lot. Now [00:06:00] that's the hardest thing to deal with, to lose your memories. To this day, still makes me really, really upset. You can replace your sofas on your deep freezers and things like that, but not your memories. And then the more I looked round, and actually to be fair, the more I look round now, people are not preparing for being flooded.
So time and time again we see a reporter going into a flooded house. And people are lamenting the fact that they've lost their photographs, they've lost their memories and the children's toys are all floating over the floor. So I really then started, decided that because there was no help and support available for me in my worst flood 23 years ago, my first flood was 29 years ago.
The only thing I got was a leaflet from Environmental Health telling me to [00:07:00] wash my hands if I touched flood water. They nearly left wearing it because it was ten days after I'd been flooded when they, when they gave me that. So I then sort of started researching what I personally could do to help my home recover after a flood.
As well at the same time as campaigning to stop me from flooding from more sewage and I have to tell you that was quite a successful campaign. I worked very closely with the Environment Agency and Seven Trent Water. I never shouted at them, I never raised my voice, I never pointed my finger. I was extremely nice to them and in fact Both the area manager and the sewage flooding manager for Severn Trent, I became good friends as a result.
And we did get two things. We got a pumping station for my own street, which has reduced the risk of flooding. not taken it [00:08:00] away. And we also got temporary barriers, the very first temporary barriers ever tested in the country along the riverbank in Worcester. So really, that's another story of working together and not being angry and shouty and pointy.
But at the same time, I researched what I could do to make my home flood recoverable. Should I flood again? And I got help from builders and things, and we put in very basic concrete. walls and yacht varnish on the skirting boards and tiled floors and such like. When we were flooded again in 2007, the pumping station was overwhelmed and that's another lesson that alleviation scheme reduces the risk of flooding, it doesn't take it away, and that's something I passionately tell communities when I go to join them when we're opening a flood alleviation scheme.
We did flood and we were able to [00:09:00] sanitise it, pump it out. and get the fires lit and carry on living there with no insurance claim, no disruption to family life. So from that moment, that was my light bulb moment. And so from then on, I researched what could be done to a keep the water out because everybody naturally wants to keep the water out and be how we could make homes.
Niki Roach: You're known in the sector as Flood Mary, and I think, I mean, you've just done it now, Mary, beautifully. You've brought the human impact, the human cost of flooding, what life is like for people living in those properties, particularly post flooding. It's not always the first thing that comes to mind, is it?
And actually, I think what you've done really beautifully there is remind us of the Of the human cost of being flooded and also the surprise and that for it for me is really interesting, you know, whilst we're talking about flooding more and here in the UK at the moment, we're in the midst of [00:10:00] some floods that are impacting large swathes of the country.
Do you think people? Are more aware now than perhaps we were 20, 25 years ago of their risk of flooding? Or do you think there's still a disconnect between if I don't live near a river, if I don't see water, then I don't think it
will impact me? I think there's a huge disconnect even with people that live at flood risk.
I
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: work on something called the Rain Project in Northampton and they have just conducted a study amongst people who live at risk of flooding in Northamptonshire. Most of them are aware that flooding is going to get worse due to climate change. A very high percentage of them have said in a recent survey that, yes, they're worried about climate change and flooding increasing.
One of the questions was, are you worried about your flood risk increasing at your own home level? And the response to that was stunning. staggeringly low. Most people [00:11:00] didn't take on their flood risk at all. They don't believe their flood risk is increasing and a lot of them don't believe they're at risk of flooding.
Now it's my opinion that opinion is magnified right around the country. If I had a pound for every time somebody came onto my floodmobile, which we'll talk about in a bit, but onto my floodmobile and said, say things like, I live on a hill, love I'm not going to flood, or I'm nowhere near a river, stream, or sea, and I'm not going to flood.
And then, subsequently, I find out that, you know, they've had a huge localised downpour and those people that I've talked to have flooded. I've talked to many people who said, oh yes, we got a flood warning, but we didn't think it had come, and it did. And then they're devastated. So that's why I do. So many radio interviews, television interviews, [00:12:00] conferences, I go into community groups just to talk about this could happen to you.
A lot of agencies that manage flood risk are a bit worried about scaring people. I'd rather get them worried and get them thinking about, Okay, I've got a flood warning, now what can I do? Rather than doing nothing.
Niki Roach: This season of Planet Possible is sponsored by Accordion. Accordion lets you choose the duration of any piece of video or audio content. Using Accordion you can change the length of a podcast, keynote speech, training video, or anything else via a slider bar, keeping the essential information you need and losing the detail you don't.
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Let's maybe just contextualize this because lots of our listeners are all over the world. So, you know, you and I both in England, let's just contextualize it a little bit for people. So what's, what's happening at the moment in terms of the flooding landscape here in the UK?
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: Well, what's happening at the moment, because it hasn't stopped raining, what since storm?
And then we had a lot of rain at the beginning of January. And the ground really is saturated. It's like a sponge and that sponge is full up. So the river catchments were filling far more quickly than they would do. I live near, sort of along by the river side. And the River Severn is known to be a slow riser.
You know that if it's flooding upstream in, say, Shrewsbury or Bewdley, that you've got 24 hours or so. But this storm has [00:14:00] not. been like that. It's risen rapidly. It was also with a steep sided catchments that's teeming into the river and also the tributaries that feed the River Severn have gone into the River Severn quickly and it's risen at a ridiculous alarming rate.
And because Everywhere's wet, the rivers are going into their natural home, which is the floodplain. And unfortunately, there are a lot of houses on floodplains that have been built historically as well as being built now. And those houses have been flooded. It's happened in Nottingham along the t Trent where, and we've almost seen record breaking floods.
The floods here were almost as. bad as the floods of 2020. People are flooding on the Thames in Raysbury and, and Oxford is flooding and because I'm quite well known and I've supported a lot of people I was getting, I've been getting WhatsApps late at night or early in the morning to say, Mary, I'm just about to flood.
And I've literally been [00:15:00] walking people through on WhatsApp messages what to do and how to plan for it. It's very live. It's very now. And people are very, very frightened. It is incredibly frightening when you see a load of flood water coming to your home and you feel absolutely helpless as to how to deal with it.
Now, that's why I'm quite so passionate about property flood resilience. So for those people who don't live in the UK, that's really what we can do at a property level to A, try and keep the water out and B, make adaptations to the inside of the property to help it recover quickly. For me, I've always focused on recoverability whilst everybody would like to keep it out.
If you haven't got recoverable measures in your home then you will still be out of your home for up to nine months. Whilst [00:16:00] you're being dried out, the plaster's been knocked off, the flooring's been put up, the electricity has been reinstated, and the property has obviously got to be dried. Evidence has shown me, and I have travelled all around the country, that people have put in recoverable repair, so waterproof plaster and plaster boards and solid flooring.
You can get beautiful solid flooring or even plastic flooring. flood resilient and recoverable kitchens, a lot of the homes that I've visited have got their electricity up the walls and plug sockets up the walls and upstairs and downstairs electricity isolated so they can live upstairs and then when the flood water's gone and I've learned so much one household along the River Severn they can hear it going, you always can, it's like somebody pulls a big plug out, they chuck eco washing up liquid and eco disinfectant into the water, agitate it up, use a massive squeegee [00:17:00] to force it out of the house and it leaves the house clean.
They then light all their fires, open their windows and they can start the drying process. And the people along the River Severn don't tend to make insurance claims. Because they've made all these adaptations. This is not a picnic. It's hard work. It really is hard work It's exhausting but Far better that Adapting to live with what is with us now Let alone what's with us in the future, and be able to sweep out, sanitise, light your fire and carry on living there, rather than forced to live in a caravan or alternative accommodation miles away, or living upstairs, which I did and that was horrendous, rather than non picnic state and being able to stay at home and not make an insurance claim than be forced out of your home.
[00:18:00] In 2007 people were living in caravans for two years. Two years living at minus two with bubble wrap at your caravan window. It's just horrific.
Niki Roach: You've covered so much there and in particular one of the things that I find really interesting is thinking about what are some of those measures that people can take.
You've articulated that beautifully both in terms of Trying to keep it out, but probably more importantly, acknowledging that if you're at flood risk at some point, it may well get in, so how do you recover quickly? So that then leads me to Wondermary. How do you know, if you're listening to this podcast, how do you know if you're at flood risk?
Because there are some obvious properties next to rivers, as we've talked about, but you can be flooded by rivers, you can be flooded by groundwater, you can be flooded by sewage. There's lots of different ways that water gets into our homes. Arguably, there are lots of different organizations that are responsible for that as well.
It could feel like quite a confusing picture. So if you're not in the industry, how do you [00:19:00] even find out if you were at risk of flooding? Where does that journey begin?
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: Well, the journey begins with an environmental report that we always get when we're buying a property. But when you buy a property, you get absolute wodges of paperwork.
A lot of people, majority of people, don't read the environmental report and don't see whether they're at flood risk. And I would like solicitors, really, to start really banging the drum and saying, look, Are you aware that this property is at flood risk? And also signposting people as to what they can do if they decide to go ahead with that property, giving them perhaps the link to my Household Guide to Property Flood Resilience or something that they can then weigh up the benefits of, Oh, I'm living in front of a river or actually, you know, the I like this housing estate and there's a great school down the road and okay I'm at risk of surface water flooding but you know if I put a barrier or a self closing air brick [00:20:00] or flood door I can keep it out and probably with surface water flooding you certainly could keep it out.
It's really very very confusing and one thing I've always found confusing and certainly did. When I first flooded and I talked to, you know, thousands of people over the years that there's not just one agency that manages flood risk and flood victims don't care when they ring up for help. They don't care to be told, you know, it's not our water, it's the environment agency's water or it's your local authorities or that sewage, that's the water companies.
They don't care. It's flood water. It's in their house. They don't want it there. They didn't ask it to be there. Also, another thing that I still despair of when I'm talking about people ringing for help is that they ring for sandbags. There are sandbags everywhere in the news.
My husband's just driven through Tewksbury and said to me he's glad I'm not in Tewksbury at the moment because there are sandbags [00:21:00] absolutely everywhere. They're split open and there's sand all over the place. And of course that sand is going into the drains to reduce carbon. capacity of those drains, and often when you go to a flooded area after a flood, there's sand in the drains.
I tested them, because we have to test all the flood products, the doors and the barriers etc, in a testing tank to get a certification, a kite mark, so we know they're fit for purpose. So I went along and I tested sandbags. Four sandbags failed in 59 seconds from turning the water on. So I thought, well, come on, let's give sandbags a chance.
So I built a barrier of ten sandbags. They failed in two minutes, five seconds from turning the water on. Suddenly thought, let's try some wide gaffer tape on a door in a testing tank. So I did. I got some wide Gaffer tape and I put it all around the door up to about a meter which you would with a flood barrier We [00:22:00] turned the water on and the water didn't come through and it didn't come through and it didn't come through I was getting very excited and eventually it did come through but not a lot of it And then the guy that was testing it removed the tape and it burst through the water Then it dawned on me that even if it was leaking, it would keep a lot of water out.
So now I can say with confidence, use some gaffer tape. It won't be as good as any, as a KiteMart flood protection product, but it will give you time. to move your stuff, to move those photographs and your memories and lift your sofas up etc. So gaffer tape is my, my go to sort of quick fix now. So
Niki Roach: Mary I'm conscious you've given us, you've given us a bit of a canter through some really key points there which is if you are living in a new property or even if you've been somewhere for a long time.
It's worth checking that pack that you get from the [00:23:00] solicitors to say am I at risk in the first instance. It sounds like if you are at risk there are steps that you can take and we'll signpost in the show notes some of the resources that you've talked about that you kindly provide in order to try and make your property more resilient.
I was on your floodmobile. It's an amazing little mini home really isn't it and I saw your air bricks with like non return valves. There's all sorts of interesting stuff that you can do. It feels like there's also some thinking if you're in at risk around. Well, the so what? How do I make sure that I can recover quickly and, and get back into my home as fast as I possibly can?
So I guess thinking about all of that, I always ask guests. Mary, if I were to give you the Planet Possible magic wand and you could make anything possible, what, what would that be? What would you want to change?
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: I've only got one wish.
Niki Roach: No, I mean, I feel like we could probably give you more than one, I'll just say.
You know, go
for it.
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: Thank you, . Thank you. Well, first of all, I, I'd like to think that adaptation to flooding could be on the top of our agenda, [00:24:00] instead of thousands of people being displaced. That adaptation would come front and foremost of our thinking. We cannot continue to build concrete walls around our entire.
country. We've got to think outside the box because I believe, and I've said for many years, that every flood alleviation scheme is going to be overtopped. And I think I used to worry about my grandchildren. I now worry about the future of my children. And you're much younger than me, Nicky. I worry about you, about our futures, because climate change is going to get worse.
Even if we did something now, we're going to get a worse and worse flood. They keep coming. So, we've really got to think about adapting the way we live and the way we use our countryside to slow that flow. We've got to start working with nature, not [00:25:00] against it, because nature will always, always win. So
that's a big one.
Adaptation and more awareness of adaptation, and I am nodding furiously as you can probably see, Mary. But you said you might want more than one, so, go on, I won't look. What's the next one?
Well, I was quoted this week in many a newspaper for saying that we need government to wake up and smell the flood water.
Because it's all very well. for me to go on about homeowners should take more responsibility. We've got to work in partnership here, it always has been sort of ethos of mine. And unless we start getting leadership from the top to accept that things are really bad, they're not a little bit bad, they're really bad, and embracing what we can do to mitigate climate change, then those flood defences are going to over top.
Sooner than later.
Niki Roach: Really critical [00:26:00] and if there's one thing that you would want listeners to I guess go and, go and do, go and think about, after listening to this podcast, what
would that be?
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: To find out your flood risk, and if you're at risk of flooding, sign up for a free Environment Agency Flood Warning, and then make a plan as to how you're going to deal with it.
Niki Roach: Really clear Mary, thank you. As ever, we've run out of time, it always happens, and I could talk to you for hours, but thank you so much for being, well, so Thoughtful and so clear, really, Mary, and also for being so passionate about something and from what was clearly an awful experience, really, bringing so much positivity.
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: My absolute pleasure.
Niki Roach: Okay, Ian, so what are your reflections on what you've heard from
Mary there?
Ian Withers: I was absolutely fascinated listening to her. I mean, she speaks so well, doesn't she, about something that hopefully most people won't experience, and yet we can all relate to the realities of what she talks about.
The challenge of dealing with flooding when You've got life [00:27:00] going on around you. She speaks as she finds it. She says so many truths about how the human condition responds to that kind of threat. So I found her honesty and practical advice as well fascinating. I mean, the tip around gaffer tape as opposed to sandbags, which I've always thought was a really kind of crude flood barrier.
And I'm delighted to hear her say, you know, actually, you're probably better prepared having half a dozen rolls of gaffer tape somewhere accessible for a flood than you are. to do anything else. That's the sort of stuff I think people really need to take notice of.
I was really struck by that thinking about having a flood pack almost and what are the things you need in your home because you could imagine you could be quite paralysed.
You're suddenly water coming into your home, particularly if you're not expecting it, particularly if it's never happened before, even the most prepared amongst us might just suddenly freeze I think really and so Mary's tips definitely felt really Yeah, really accessible, really practical. It's not all about spending loads of money and And engineering loads of solutions, [00:28:00] actually.
Absolutely. And I think this is something that we have all got to get our head around, haven't we? As climate change starts to make its presence felt, you know, we're definitely seeing impacts of that. And I think it is true that people who have never had to worry about flooding need to do so. Need to think about the reality of how flooding might affect them.
Even if it doesn't Actually come to their property, it is almost certainly going to affect their ability to get around the country. You know, the infrastructure will be flooded, their workplace of work might be flooded or people in their family may well be impacted. So I think we've all got an obligation to think differently about flooding.
You know, you mentioned about people not expecting it. I'll tell you a short story. I work with lots of people who are. intimately involved in forecasting, preparing for flooding and helping communities get ready. And someone I work with who is a flood incident duty officer herself and knows all about the misery that floods cause was flooded in her home in December.
She said to me, I didn't know what to do. I [00:29:00] panicked. I didn't have a pack. I didn't have a list. I had to ring the fire brigade and I was a mess. And she was a little bit ashamed and embarrassed about that, but has sort of learnt from it that actually we've all got to prepare for the reality and the misery of flooding, because that's what's ahead for
many of us.
Niki Roach: And I think really understandable as well, isn't it? The first time anything like that happens, it doesn't matter how many times you do it in your professional life, when it's your home, there's something very different, isn't there, about those things happening at home? And it's a really natural feeling of panic, which is where PrEP comes in.
Talking about the role of the agency, in particular the Environment Agency, what is the Environment Agency's role in
flooding?
Ian Withers: It operates on a number of levels. The Environment Agency has a duty and takes it very seriously to look a long way ahead at the likelihood of flooding and what we need to do as a country, as a society, to put ourselves in the best possible shape for that.
And that really means building and maintaining a vast number of flood defences and assets across England. [00:30:00] And there's a huge program, capital program of work in place to do that on a six yearly cycle. In parallel with that is a just as important but more locally visible service to warn and inform. And that really takes the form of the flood alerts and flood warnings and sometimes severe flood warnings that people.
are probably more used to seeing and choosing whether to act on or not. That relies on our collaboration with the Met Office, for example, the Flood Forecasting Centre, to get the best possible meteorological information and weather forecast and predict, knowing what we know about how much water there is already in the landscape, how likely it is that communities, infrastructure and so on will flood.
So the service that we provide is. tailored to be as accurate as possible, and that's not perfect, but as accurate as possible, to give people as much notice and to do so in simple terminology so people can act. It's as much of an art as it is a science, I think, to be able to [00:31:00] do that and Encourage people to respond in a way that puts themselves in the best possible position to deal with flooding if it
happens.
Niki Roach: Could anything have been done differently then? If you think about both Storm Henk, we've had eight named storms, as I said at the opening, since sort of September here in England. How well is it working? Could anything be done differently from an Environment Agency perspective, do you think?
I'm absolutely sure without sort of you know, opening myself up to criticism that, that we, we can all do better.
You know, every, we learn something from every storm, every event, every flood. So, so yes is the, is the honest answer. And I think one of the things I'd like to be able to say we are better at is being much more accurate. I mean, we're not bad, but much more accurate with. our predictions of flooding. I do quite a lot of work with communities and I do quite a lot of media work when we've had flooding and I, I talk to people about the number of flood warnings you did at the top of this podcast, you know, how many are in, in place at the [00:32:00] moment.
And yet, no matter how many times we say that, and how many times I remind listeners to a radio program, for example, there is a prospect of flooding. I see people Almost in denial that that is the case. You know, I don't need to act. It didn't, we had a flood warning last year and nothing happened. Didn't even see any water.
This kind of response. And what I suspect is true is that people hear a flood warning, see a flood warning, but don't, with some justification, expect it to flood. And therefore they don't do anything. And I would like, so you asked what could we do better, I think we have a, an opportunity to be more accurate with our flood forecasting.
And when we say there's a flood warning in place because flooding is likely, you need to take action. It means that people will, will take notice and act because they understand that we're serious. And I think at the moment, we're not quite universally in the right place
with that.
If I can just ask a little bit more about that Ian, because that's really [00:33:00] interesting.
A bit like you drive down the motorway and sometimes you see signs telling you to slow down and they've been on for ages and you realise the obstruction disappeared half an hour ago, you know. Are you too slow to respond, do you think? Or is it not locally specific? Or where, where's the improvement?
Where, if I got a flood alert, what would you need to say to me to make me respond more effectively, do you think, than is happening at the moment?
Ian Withers: Hmm.
That's a really, that's a really good question because I think, I think actually the timeliness is good. I think our 24 7 alertness to flooding and the dynamics of a flood and how water is performing is really on the ball.
And I think you know, our, our staff work extremely hard round the clock to update flood warnings and flood alerts. And so I think that the timeliness is good. So we don't get that all that sign's being flashing for hours and there's nothing to worry about. What I think is. Really critical is the, is that granularity in our absolute on the ground understanding, which relies on our reconnaissance and our intelligence gathering in the flood and afterwards, as to what level it actually came to.
[00:34:00] That's the bit that I think we need to work on. Our service needs to improve, no doubt about it, and it will improve as we get more and more understanding of each flood and how it manifests in the time that is flooding. That's the area for improvement, I think. That's, I mean, that's
so interesting. That's, that's making me wonder about what changes you might need at a national level, a local level, to help you make more of an impact, be that around the flood forecasting or warning or operational response.
Niki Roach: So, what needs to change, do you think, Ian, other than what we've just
discussed?
Ian Withers: We just need people on the ground who can measure, look, record exactly what flood levels were reached. So that our models, which we use, you know, inevitably we have to use models, as most things do these days, to predict when the next flood happens, whether a flood warning at level X actually means level x and not some other level that isn't quite the same.
The other thing that I think we all need to take account of is this reality that flooding, although you're a householder with a flood, with flood water in your house, you don't care [00:35:00] why it's happened, you just want it to To stop and to be able to recover. The reality is the complexity of flooding is actually pretty hard to get your head around.
And we've seen flooding in this event, the most recent event, that has been the combination of different sources of flood water, groundwater flooding, which is a really difficult thing to deal with because it comes up from underneath. You're home and it's very difficult to keep out. Intense rainfall causing surface water flash flooding and extremely high fluvial levels, river flooding, happening at the same time.
And all of that has happened and is actually disrupting the models and the intelligence that we've always relied on about how floods perform. So I think we've, we've got to be honest about saying we need to understand how floods happen better than we do. And, and we'll probably always be learning that.
And I think it's just one of those things we just need to accept is It's, it's different every time and we need to be on top of it.
Niki Roach: One of
the things that we've heard quite a lot of, certainly on this podcast when we've talked about storm overflows, [00:36:00] is the need for increased monitoring. And we've also heard quite a lot about citizen science.
There's a huge groundswell, I think, of individuals within society, certainly in the UK, who are interested in their, their local environment, in their rivers, and are prepared to go above and beyond a little bit and report back on what they're seeing. Is there, is there a role for citizen science and increased kind of data and monitoring in this space as well or?
I'm
Ian Withers: sure there is. I'm absolutely convinced there is. We have to be open to. all sorts of observational science. Anecdotal observation from people who are at the scene suffering is perfectly legitimate. And I think we cannot afford to be snobbish about that. We absolutely need to take those data absolutely seriously.
So I, I agree. And it goes far beyond flooding as well. I mean, my, you know, my other interest is the regulatory side of the business and we need to be more open to. observational science, citizen science than we are across the board, I'm absolutely certain of that.
Niki Roach: So beyond that point, what else would you like individuals [00:37:00] to reflect on when it comes to flooding and I guess take action around?
Ian Withers: I'd love to see People take more seriously the reality of flooding. The first warning or the first alert that happens. So, I've been talking to colleagues in this, you know, flood forecasting arena. There's a fairly commonly held view that it takes three floods, three times of your property being flooded, before you actually believe that you need to take it seriously.
And it seems a bit perverse, doesn't it? But actually, it sort of makes sense when you think about it. So, if it happens once. People think it's a one off. Okay, you know, I was just unlucky. So they don't do anything. It happens again, and people think, well, it's happened twice now, it's never going to happen again, you know, it won't happen a third time.
In the midst of that, actually, you know, quite often a flood will happen in the winter, and then by the time you've squared everything up, sorted out your insurance, dealt with whatever it is, it's summer, and it's the last thing you even want to be on your mind. And so you don't take any action again, [00:38:00] and then it happens a third time, and that's when people seem to think Actually, this is a reality for me, I need to do something about it.
What I'd love people to be able to do more readily is, is to believe that even the prospect of the first flood is something they need to act on. And Mary refers to this reality of being prepared, having a plan, even if it's the most basic, what do I need to do, who do I need to make arrangements for, what paperwork, what medication.
If everyone did that and then took this philosophy of If it doesn't happen, then it's a legitimate practice. For if it might happen again, then I think society will be, you know, universally better prepared. There is definitely something about taking personal responsibility and acting. Even if that's in vain for the first few times, because we will absolutely be better prepared for it as a result.
Niki Roach: Probably
leads nicely onto my final question, and I think you know what's coming in, because I offer every guest the Planet Possible Magic Wand. So if I pass it [00:39:00] across to you, and you give it a wave, and make anything possible in this space, what would you, what would you like that to be?
Ian Withers: I'd love to Accelerate the reconnection that we are doing with our rivers and their flood plains.
Some of flood resilience is absolutely about the way we warn people and the action they take. But I think we are expecting our rivers to behave themselves when in fact our relentless march, you know, development, the infrastructure that we're putting in place all across the country is meaning our rivers are flooding where they cause damage and they cause disruption.
And our natural floodplains and natural channels that we should have in place for our rivers are disappearing. There are other benefits as well, the sort of, you know, ecological and biodiversity benefits worth it in themselves, but I think we are not going to make progress on protecting people. until we give rivers the space they need to flood more naturally and flood in a way that is not going to cause as [00:40:00] much disruption.
So I think there's something about waving along and say, come on, let's, let's all collaborate, work together and have this more naturalized flood plane.
Niki Roach: I'm nodding furiously. It's a beautiful point to finish on. Thank you Ian. I couldn't agree more. And as usual, time has flown by. We're at the end of another episode of Planet Possible.
So a huge to you our listeners for joining us. I really hope you found the conversation insightful. I hope it's given you something to think about in your world, even if that's just going and getting your flood plans sorted. You can subscribe to Planet Possible on your usual podcast player to never miss an episode.
And we'd love to hear your ratings and reviews too. So a huge thanks for supporting Planet Possible. We're looking forward to bringing you an amazing lineup of guests in 2024, covering as usual, the critical topics. So I hope you'll continue to join us for those. All that leaves me to say is a huge thank you to my guests today.
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE and my co host Ian Withers. Thank you, Ian. Thank you, Niki. It's been a pleasure. Total pleasure. That's it, everyone. Stay safe and we'll see you next time.[00:41:00]
Mary Long-Donaugh OBE: Planet Possible is produced by Bulb. B W L B Bulb. The best ideas, the strongest content.